S.A. Cosby: We Tell Lies To Tell The Truth

Have you ever found yourself standing at the crossroads of a dream, wondering if the path to success is truly meant for you? S.A. Cosby, the man who journeyed from hardware store aisles to the New York Times Bestseller list, sits with me, Nadine Matheson, to share the twists and turns of such a trek. We exchange stories of encouragement from unexpected places and the profound influence a single teacher can have on a fledgling writer's destiny.

S.A. Cosby is the author of three New York Times Bestsellers, Blacktop Wasteland, Razorblade Tears and All The Sinners Bleed and recounts his ascent. We also grapple with the weighty responsibilities shouldered by storytellers: to both captivate and challenge, to entertain and enlighten.

All The Sinners Bleed

A BLACK SHERIFF. A SERIAL KILLER.
AND A SMALL TOWN READY TO COMBUST.

Titus Crown is the first Black sheriff in the history of Charon County, Virginia. In recent decades, Charon has had only two murders. After years of working as an FBI agent, no one knows better than Titus that while his hometown might seem like a land of moonshine, cornbread, and honeysuckle, secrets always fester under the surface.

But a year to the day after Titus's election, a school teacher is killed by a former student. The student is then fatally shot by Titus's deputies.

As Titus investigates the shootings, he unearths terrible crimes, and a serial killer who has been hiding in plain sight, haunting the dirt lanes and woodland clearings of Charon. With the killer's possible connections to a local church and the town's harrowing history weighing on him, Titus tries to project confidence about closing the case while concealing a painful secret from his own past. At the same time, he also has to contend with a far-right group that wants to hold a parade in celebration of the town's Confederate history.

Charon is Titus's home and his heart. But where faith and violence meet, there will be a reckoning.

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Transcript

S.A. Cosby: 0:00

Writers are telling stories that are myths, and myths are what society thinks it should be, and we do that. We show them what they could be for, good or ill, and that just it's stuck with me. It makes me emotional thinking about it, because I do think writing. I think, you know, the first duty of a writer is to entertain, but the second duty is to make you think.

Nadine Matheson: 0:24

Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Conversation Podcast with your host, best Dining Author, nadine Matheson. How are you all? As always, I hope that you're well. I hope that you've had a good week and you know what I'm going to do this week. I'm going straight into the conversation because sometimes, when you have a conversation that's so good, you just want to share it with the world, like no messing about, just get into it. And that's what I'm going to do with this week's conversation with my guest, sa Cosby.

Nadine Matheson: 0:57

Sa Cosby is the New York Times Best Selling Author of Blacktop, wasteland, razorblade, tears and All the Sinners Bleed, and you'll find it difficult not to find someone out there who thinks that SA Cosby is not amazing. President Obama thinks he's amazing, and there hasn't been one award shortlist where SA Cosby has not appeared. And he's also a friend of mine, and the best thing in life is seeing your friends fly, and SA Cosby is definitely flying. So in this week's conversation, sa Cosby and I talk about staying humble within the tsunami of success, being too stubborn not to be published, and how writers tell lies to tell the truth. Now, as always, sit back or go for a walk and enjoy the conversation SA Cosby, also known as Sean, because I will call you Sean, welcome to the conversation.

S.A. Cosby: 1:46

Thank you for having me. Thank you for having me on. It's great to see you again.

Nadine Matheson: 1:50

When did we last see each other? It was last year at Harrogate. I think it was the last time we saw each other and I think the first time we met I was thinking about this this morning it would be like four or three years ago. Maybe three years ago. Yeah, we did the Zoom call for emerging writers.

S.A. Cosby: 2:07

You had just finished the first in the Henley and your Henley books and I had just published Blacktop. Yeah, blacktop had just come out, so it's been a while and now look at us. I know right who would have bought it, not me, who would have bought it, which is why this is going to be my first question.

Nadine Matheson: 2:26

So if we were to go back so this is way back before Blacktop Wasteland and way back before my Darkest Prayer who were you? Who was Sean before Sean became SA? Cosby International, best Selling everything?

S.A. Cosby: 2:44

Sean was a bit of a rambunctious character who loved writing and reading but also was working, you know, 40, 50 hours a week as a manager at a retail store, at a hardware store. I was somebody who had a lot of doubts about my writing skill, someone who had suffered through a lot of rejections. But also I think I was somebody who I kind of always knew my purpose was to write. I never imagined all the stuff that happened would happen, but I think I always knew that I would eventually get published and write. I think I think it was just because I was too spiteful and stubborn not to get published. I just wasn't going to quit. But I think I was a person trying to find my path.

S.A. Cosby: 3:32

The job I was working at I didn't hate it but it wasn't fulfilling. It was a job I needed to make money and I loved the people I worked with. But I knew I wanted to do something more and writing was a thing that I always felt I was moderately talented at. So everything was a means to end. But I think also I was someone who I really just enjoy reading and writing I'm still a big reader and so I was this person that sort of was kind of trying to find my way.

Nadine Matheson: 4:05

Who told you you were talented? Was it someone? Was it a teacher, someone in the family, or was it just? No, I'm Sean. I know I'm talented. I'm going to do this.

S.A. Cosby: 4:18

No, it was a teacher. I had an English teacher, or a writing teacher, I guess I should say, in my 11th grade year in the States here, and his name was Jeff Bone. And so I just get in trouble for talking in class. A lot I'm very talkative always happen. And one day he asked me to stay up in class and he's I thought I was in trouble for talking again and I had written an essay and turned it in and he was talking to me about how well written the essay was and he thought I had a really unique voice perspective. He just encouraged me to take writing seriously, Like he encouraged me to try to go to college for it, and he gave me books on writing that you know weren't a part of our curriculum, Books that he thought would help me as a writer.

S.A. Cosby: 5:03

And so, even though even after I left school and I went to college for a couple of years, I had to drop out my mom was she passed away now, but my mom was in poor health and I couldn't finish going to college and so I would still see Mr Bone in town. We'd run into each other. He'd always asked me are you still writing? And I was like yeah, kind of, and he was like, well, you know, he always encouraged me don't quit, you know, don't stop. You really do have talent and it inspired me to just keep sticking with it.

S.A. Cosby: 5:32

And he was the person who really, I think, first noticed it, other than my mom. My mom was the person who noticed I had a talent in it but, as moms are, she was concerned, you know she didn't want her son to be some dilettante. So you know, like you try to get a good job, Don't just try to live off this right. And she lived long enough to see, you know, the things happen. That happened for me and I think I know she was very proud of me. But yeah, Mr Bone was the first person to like pull me aside and say you should take this seriously because you're very good at it.

Nadine Matheson: 6:03

How old are you when you're 11th grade? Is it 17?

S.A. Cosby: 6:06

Yeah 17.

Nadine Matheson: 6:09

I was. I've spoken to other authors before and we've spoken a lot about being in school and, you know, having that love for books and writing, but not necessarily getting that encouragement from a teacher to say you can pursue writing as a career. It's, you know, go and do other things and that's your whole circle, right, like families always going to be saying to you like, look for a proper, a strong and stable job. Writing's not seen as strong and stable, I suppose so it's amazing that your teacher?

Nadine Matheson: 6:37

no, not at all, but it's amazing that your teacher, Mr Bone, he told you that you have talent and to go to college and to write.

S.A. Cosby: 6:46

Yeah, and he. So it's funny because you know, time goes on and he left town, Him and his wife actually did something really cool. They retired early and they just traveled the world, and so we had a book signing in our here in my hometown a few years ago and he surprised me. He came back and I was at the book signing and I didn't know he was coming and so so I got to set the scene for you. So when we were in his class, if you got in trouble, he would call you by your last name, Mr Cosby, or Mr Jones or Ms Brooks. Do I have your attention or can I have your attention please? And that's when you do you in trouble because you were talking out of turn and I was signing a book and I heard this voice say Mr Cosby, can I have your attention? And I look up and there's Mr Bone in the doorway at the book sign and it was so great seeing him and I cried, he cried, everybody cried, it was wonderful.

Nadine Matheson: 7:44

I'm just thinking. The only teacher who's got in touch with me so far was my PE teacher, mr Roberts, who found me on Facebook. It was all the couple of years ago. He found me on Facebook and he said I found you and I'm so pleased to see what you're doing. I'm so proud and I was like this is the guy who told me off because I was very stubborn. I was so stubborn about doing sports. I knew what I was good at and I knew what I didn't want to do. And I think there was one. It was a sports day and they had me down to run. I was always a sprint. I had me down to run 800 meters. I don't do 800 meters and I I don't know.

Nadine Matheson: 8:23

I do 100 and 200.

S.A. Cosby: 8:24

And.

Nadine Matheson: 8:25

I didn't. I didn't go to sports day and he called my mum to say where is Nadine. So it's my memory, but he got in contact to say like he was so proud. So it is important, I think, to have to have those encouraging teachers then, to then to fast forward to today and have those moments, oh yeah definitely.

S.A. Cosby: 8:44

I think you know teachers shape so much of who we are as people, not as just as writers, and I think having a teacher who does acknowledge that, whether in the past or in the present, is important. I think, and for me, you know I came from a very economically disadvantaged background and so you know the dream of being a writer. Like you said, my parents' mom especially she didn't discourage it, but it was always. You know you got to have a steady job, you got to have something you can rely on. Writing is unreliable and you know a teacher kind of he didn't contradict my mom, but he encouraged me to to pursue that dream even while I was getting a steady job, a dependable job, but don't give up on that dream.

S.A. Cosby: 9:29

I think writing is unique in that you can do other things and still pursue it. You know you try to be an actor, you have to go on auditions, you have to make time to do those things. You know as a writer you could just sit in your room or your office or a coffee shop and on your lunch break, like I did, and go back to work, but I was still scratching that writing itch and I think it was really. His encouragement did keep me going a lot, because I got so many rejected. I got oh gosh, I got rejected in double and triple digits, sometimes for stuff.

Nadine Matheson: 10:01

You could see my face. I don't. I know I've spoken to writers who have kept a spreadsheet of their rejections and I don't think I I don't like Excel anyway, so I wouldn't have done a spreadsheet, but I don't think I would have been keeping a note of it because I don't know what that would have done to me mentally to be cataloging or tabling these rejections.

S.A. Cosby: 10:26

It just made me more determined to write Like I used to have a file with the rejection emails, I would take them out of my main email and put them in the file and I would just tell myself one day everybody who's rejected me is going to regret it. So I guess, like kind of kept it going.

Nadine Matheson: 10:44

But I think I think you need that, I think you need to have a bit of spy, you need a little bit of pettiness, because I do. I acknowledge there's a bit of a petty side to me. So when you do get, when you do get success in whatever it is, and you know someone in your past as maybe look down at it or being critical about it, and I'm like, yeah, okay, look at me now, you're looking me now, yeah. And then there's a stubbornness as well, like well, no, you can't tell me, no, I'm just going to keep on going.

S.A. Cosby: 11:11

I think, also, as a writer, you have to have a little bit of ego. A little bit of ego because you have to believe that what you're trying to say in your perspective is worth it. It's worth other people seeing it. You know, and I think you know, it's good to have a healthy dose of no, I am good. This is what I'm saying is important, you know.

S.A. Cosby: 11:32

It's funny, though, because, for me, once I started to have a little bit of success, I sort of regressed. I got very humble. I still am, and I'm very self-deprocated and I don't think I'm a big deal. I think I don't take myself seriously. I take the writing seriously, but I used to say in interviews oh, you know, if I can do it, anybody can do it. It's not a big deal, you know, just write.

S.A. Cosby: 11:57

You know my little stories and a friend of mine, jordan Harper. He contacted me and he said, hey, stop saying that, because what we do is special and if everybody could do it, then everybody would do it. And it was funny because right after I had that conversation with him, I was online looking at something. I saw this clip of Alan Moore and he did like one of these masterclass things, yeah, but he said this most, this incredibly beautiful thing.

S.A. Cosby: 12:25

He said I hope that right and I'm paraphrasing, but I hope the writers of today are emerging writers, don't just think of themselves as entertainers. And he said books have changed the world. Writing can change the world. You're a part of this lineage, this legacy that, like, started with people around fires and a cave. He said this. He said you know story and writers are telling stories that are myths, and myths are what society thinks it should be. And we do that. We show them what they could be, for good or ill. And that just it's stuck with me. It makes me emotional thinking about it, because I do think writing. I think you know the first duty of a writer is to entertain, but the second duty is to make you think. You know, I have a tattoo on my arm that says writers tell lies to find the truth and I fervently believe it.

Nadine Matheson: 13:19

I mean the thing about writing especially. You know, being a not even a young age, any age, but it opens you up to so many different worlds and you could, you know, you experience worlds, you experience lives and they could be real lives, fictional lives, alternative realities. It gives you access to so many things, which is why I find it very frustrating when I see what's coming out of the states with the book banning, because I just it makes no sense to me. How do you feel about that? I didn't even know who got to talk about it.

S.A. Cosby: 13:50

Oh, it's insane. It's insane. And the funny thing about book banning it's quaint that somebody thinks they can ban a book in the age of internet. You know, when I was a kid you know, yeah, when I was a kid there were books that were like verbose. You know, like there was a book called the Anarchist Cookbook or Last Exes of Brooklyn and you had to search for those books. You had to go to like a rare, like used bookstore to find these books that were dangerous. And now kids can go on internet and access it through any archives or any portal.

S.A. Cosby: 14:23

So the idea for me, the book banning, is terrible and it's stupid. But it's also very performative. You know, it's just. It's people trying to make a point when, like I said, any kid over 10 can find any book they want. So you're not really accomplishing anything. You're showing off for your base or for your supporters or for people who are narrow minded like you.

S.A. Cosby: 14:46

But I do think it's dangerous to think that there are books and words that children shouldn't read. I mean, yeah, of course there are books that are above a child's intellect, but the books that they're banning aren't obscene. They're not, you know, they're not pornographic. There are books about ideas. And, again, if you think you can control ideas, I think it's very naive to think that.

S.A. Cosby: 15:09

I think it's very quaint, like I said, to think that you could control the flow of ideas. And that's what it is basically in America. They want to control what the kids need and nobody. You're always smarter after you read a book, no matter what it is, and there are people who want to keep people dumb and ignorant. And every time you read a book, like you said, you open your mind to another world, a different perspective, a different point of view, and there's a whole contingent of United States that doesn't want that. They have one point of view and when everybody just sort of fall in line. But, like I said, you know again, if you think you can stop a kid from reading a book, well you know, good luck with that.

Nadine Matheson: 15:47

So you know you're just talking about when we were younger, it was it took hard work and determination to find something you wasn't supposed to find. In fact, then, when you were looking for stuff that you weren't supposed to read, it was stuff that was considered dangerous, but in the sense of, oh, it might as well. I'm saying I'm not saying porn, but you know something that will be considered racing In that perspective. Oh, let me go, let me go and find it, whereas these are just, you know, young adults. It's just not, I say, normal books. There's nothing.

S.A. Cosby: 16:21

Like you're playing an arm in them. Yeah, no, they're banding like to kill a Mockingbird Because it? I saw this article where they said well, we don't want this in our library because it makes certain people uncomfortable. That's the point of the book. You're supposed to be uncomfortable with racism. That's the whole point. And so you know. I think it's like you said. But when we were kids, if you wanted a underground book or a book that was you know sort of dangerous or or somebody you had to, it was like Indiana Jones. You had to find it, you had to earn it.

Nadine Matheson: 16:52

Yeah, it reminds me of reading them. You know these books that made you uncomfortable. I remember feeling that way when we had to read a fellow. So I would have been seven, maybe 16, between 16 and 18, read a fellow and then, as a black person, you realise what a fellow is about and the undertones of a fellow. You're like oh, oh. But there are lines in that book that stick, or in that play that stick with me, that it will never, never leave my mind. But again, it's education, it's learning and you know, learning how to articulate yourself in different ways. And I'm not sure who said it and I'm sure I'm messed it up, but I'm sure someone said, like the most dangerous person to fear is an educated person, and that's what they're in fear with. Oh, yeah, oh yeah, yeah, definitely.

S.A. Cosby: 17:37

I think the idea of you know, of empathy and education and understanding it frightens people because you know, again, like in the States, there are certain contingents of folks who are against higher education. They're you know. You know, my kid went to this liberal college and they're liberals turned them into a liberal. No, you can learn and you can understood and became aware of a wider world. You know, and I think it was Mark Twain that said I'm butchering it as well, but he says under the effect that travel is fatal to ignorance. You know, leaving your bubble you're the small town, your small township and going into a wider world forces you to be more open and more educated.

S.A. Cosby: 18:23

You know, and I think that's true, I've had an opportunity to travel a lot in the last year and I've learned that you know, honestly, people are more kind than they are cruel. They really are. And I think once you get out of your little bubble whether it's physically traveling or going somewhere through a book you sometimes realize. You know, there's a moment I think we all have when we realize our parents aren't infallible. You know that our parents aren't perfect and they're right about a lot, but they're wrong about some things, and you learn that through education, through reading, you know. You learn that through understanding other cultures, other world, and again, I think that's what frighten people sometimes.

Nadine Matheson: 19:05

Sometimes a lot just don't need to look around you I mean I'm not saying it's perfect over here in the UK, because you can see the same thing. You know when they feel this, it's kind of that idea of you getting above your station and we need to keep you down, we need to minimize you, because then you know, once you're aware who you are and the world, you can do things.

S.A. Cosby: 19:25

Exactly, and I think that's the thing that people fear, and they shouldn't, because people again reading literature whether it's a play, whether it's a book, whether it's a movie again it opens your mind and I think we're all the better for it. You know, I had a person send me an email. They read Raise Blade here and they sent me an email about how that book opened their mind to you know what certain African-American people are going through in America, in the South, and on the one hand, that's beautiful. You know that that book helped educate or open somebody's mind, but on the other hand, it's pretty sad that it took that book in the year of our Lord, 2021, to open your mind to what people are going through, and so you know. But again, I think that's what books do. That's why books are important. That's why writing is important.

Nadine Matheson: 20:15

Can I bring you back to college? And you said you dropped, you had to drop out. Did you have a feel as though you were missing out because you hadn't finished?

S.A. Cosby: 20:24

Yeah, yeah, I felt wrong, I felt ashamed of it. I felt, you know, because. You know because, yeah, because, like in my family, I was sort of highlighted as the smart kid early on and I knew that. You know, I had certain people had expectations from me to go to college. And then, you know, even though my mom didn't want me to drop out, I had to. She physically needed help and I couldn't go away to college and you know, I have an older brother, but he had a family of his own, you know, there was just a lot going on and so when I did drop out, I felt ashamed of it. You know, I felt like, oh, wow, I've wasted my potential and it made me feel really insecure for a very long time. And but I never, like, I never stopped educating myself. You know, like I said, I'm a racist reader.

S.A. Cosby: 21:12

I never stopped writing, but I did feel like a failure for a while because I think I had this idea that if I don't earn a degree at university, then I'm not really living up my potential, I'm worthless, and that's not true. There's nothing wrong with getting a degree to, nothing wrong with finishing college, but also nothing wrong, if you can. You know that that piece of paper doesn't determine who you are as a person, you know. But yeah, it was a long time before I felt comfortable even talking about it, you know. And then you know it was just a. It was a difficult time period and I used to really beat myself up about it. I don't anymore, but I definitely felt like I missed out on certain things. And you know, I had friends that were going to college and I would see, you know them, and you know they come home from school and they tell me about, you know. Oh, we went to this great party or I'm learning this, I'm in this class, and I felt, you know, just really like left out, but at the same time I think it really it inspired me to get published, like I had this sort of mindset okay, I couldn't get the degree I wanted, I'm going to publish a book, I don't care what it takes, I will publish a book one day. And I think it also that kind of truth.

S.A. Cosby: 22:30

But yeah, I felt, you know, ironically I wasn't able to finish. But I've talked at almost 12, maybe 15 colleges, I've been invited to speak at universities, to speak to students, and it's so gratifying to see those kids, those students, and tell them my story. You know, and that you know it's not impossible, you know, and it's very gratifying to be able to talk with people and talk about education, talk about writing, and the funny thing that cracks me up every time is I'll go to one of these events and somebody's like, oh, what you know? What's your degree? In which I'm like I didn't finish, and somebody will like stud me, like oh, wow, you're really smart. And I was like, yeah, that's natural.

Nadine Matheson: 23:20

But you know what? It's amazing though On one hand you have the whole I didn't finish, I've missed out. Maybe I'm not, you tell yourself these stories, I'm not smart enough, I'm not this and that but then, on the other hand, you'll get people who did complete, I'll say uni. They did complete uni or college, they have to degree, and they come out at the end of it with no idea of what they wanna do, no idea of who they really are. One for the past three to four years have been a waste, so you can have both ends of the extremes of the scale.

S.A. Cosby: 23:52

I should say, and I think also in the States, I think there are people. So here's my hot cake for the day you can get a master's of fine arts, you can get a degree in creative writing, whatever, but you can't be taught how to be a storyteller. You either are one or you aren't, and there's no degree that can change that. I think I know so many people that come out of college with, like I said, a master's of fine art in the States and or a degree in creative writing, but they don't know how to tell a story. They've been taught the technical aspects of writing. They've been taught verb, subject agreement, They've been taught passive voice versus active voice. But that spark that makes them a storyteller.

S.A. Cosby: 24:33

And some people not everyone, some people that I know that have MFA, are amazing storytellers. But it's something you have to be born with. I think it's intrinsic and I think it will find you. Writing and storytelling will find you wherever you are. There's a guy in the United States, a writer, named William Gage. He's passed on, but he was a guy who didn't have above, didn't finish school, you know, and in many ways considered uneducated, was a house painter and he wrote these incredible Southern Gothic novel Halongan, you know, on a notebook, and they're beautiful and they're important. And I think again, I think storytelling will find you if it's meant to be, If you're meant to be a storyteller, whether you're a retail manager or a barrister or, you know, a chef or whatever, storytelling will find you if it's meant to be.

Nadine Matheson: 25:23

But you can look at. If you look at your own families, you look at your circle of friends, you can find the storytellers, I think especially in your family, because I think we've all probably got memories of sitting back when we're kids, you know, probably not going to bed when we're supposed to and listening to these older cousins or uncles or grandparents telling stories, and some of them may not have you know they went to school, but that was it because then they had to go and get a job and stuff.

Nadine Matheson: 25:47

but they know how to craft a story. They know how to engage you and make these characters come not even to expect beyond the life. They're able to do that Even kids you can follow the storytellers.

S.A. Cosby: 26:00

I grew up in a family. My dad had a big family, my mom had a moderately big family and I grew up around these I like to call them backyard orchards and barbecue rack and tours and uncles and aunts who could tell stories were funny, who were engaging, who had a talent for, you know, keeping you on the edge of your seat telling the story. I remember my uncle told us a hilarious story about when he was in the army in Korea and he went surfing never gone surfing before and he told us funny story about he was surfing with some of the Koreans after the war. He was still over there before he came home and you know it's probably a lie, but if it wasn't true it should have been and he told it so well, you know, and I took I kind of, I kind of fed off of it.

S.A. Cosby: 26:48

I think, especially here in the States, in the South, there's a history of oral storytelling, of oral traditions, and I think it's so unique to this area. You know there's so many Southern colloquialism, the sayings that find their ways into my books and you know I actually heard those growing up and so, like you said, I was surrounded by a story teller. They might didn't write books, but they definitely knew how to craft a compelling tale and I hope, I hope that I do. I do them proud in my own work.

Nadine Matheson: 27:20

So you're not doing too badly, sean. I mean, it's not perfect. You're not doing badly. Come see, come sign. I thought I was kidding. I was going to ask you a question.

Nadine Matheson: 27:32

You know, when you was talking about being humble and I was going to ask you about success, there's like, because you're, it's ridiculous, your success, and I think about it when we first met, and you know, when we first met and you said Black Top Waste, then had just it hadn't come out in the UK yet because I remember I had to order it, so I think it had come out in the States and it was coming out a few weeks. I had to order my copy and I remember I told this story before. I remember reading it in my back garden. So I had like that break and I remember messaging you. I was like I can't believe you've done this. And then you were like just wait, just wait Until like a couple of chapters later and I was like, oh, my good shorts.

Nadine Matheson: 28:11

I remember reading Black Top Waste and then they sent me razor blade tears. I was like I'm like, yeah, I'm getting a copy of razor blade tears, but okay, you can't prepare. You can't prepare for that success, I don't think. But then you're talking about your ego and you know, and being humble. So I was like how do you manage that? How do you stop your ego not going off on some crazy stratospheric tangent?

S.A. Cosby: 28:35

I think the more successful I became, the less ego I had, the less I felt I needed proof, and so the more successful the books became, the more I sort of not regressed, but sort of I sort of took a step back, you know, because it was like, oh, this book like people like it, People like this book even more, and so I didn't feel that drive, that sort of hunger to prove people wrong, you know, to show them. It became, it's become more of oh, I just want to keep going. I don't want to disappoint people, you know, and I think though I think it's hard for me to accept the level of success that I've reached. I feel funny even saying that. You know, it's like I guess I, just, like I said, I don't take myself very seriously. I never want to be too high on the horse, so to speak, because you know, this career, this thing that we do, it's a roller coaster, you know, roller coaster goes up, roller coaster come down, and I think I always want to be in the middle, so that when the highs come, I don't think too much of myself and when the lows come, I don't, I'm not too hard on myself.

S.A. Cosby: 29:42

I'll tell you a story about a writer, and I won't say who it is. It was a writer in the States who's fairly successful, and I was doing an event at a college with this person at a university and they were just so obnoxious I don't know how to say it. You know, their water wasn't cold enough, they didn't like their seat, they weren't this, they weren't that. And I was thinking to myself there are people in this room who have come to hear you talk, who have paid good money for your books. Humble yourself, be grateful for that, because people don't have to do that, you know. And I told myself then I wasn't that successful. Then I think Blacktop had just been out. I was like I'm never going to be like that. I'm never going to be like that person, because I am very grateful to be able to do this for a living.

S.A. Cosby: 30:29

Like I said, I come from a background where I've worked physically demanding jobs. I was a construction worker for a while. I was a bouncer. I've worked on a boat. Like I said, I've worked retail. I've had jobs that were hard. Writing is mentally hard, but I can sit in my recliner and do it. I'm very grateful for that opportunity and so I think for me.

S.A. Cosby: 30:52

I've had a difficult time sort of acknowledging success. You know, it's like I have friends and I'll tell them that I'm doing something Like I was on TV recently and on American television and I was talking to a friend of mine and I was like yeah, I think that went pretty well, and they were like it's amazing, like don't you realize how big a deal that is for a writer in this time and place to be on television and so kind of I accept it, but I'm also very like, sort of put off by it, like okay, just don't pay attention to me, just read the books. I'm not, I don't like the limelight as much, but at the same time I understand that it sort of comes with a duty. You know, as a black man, a black man in America, it's good for not just black kids all kids, but specifically black children, to see somebody who looks like them to attain a level of success. But my mother used to say the shine wears off of new pennies quick or new coins quickly, and so you can't take it too seriously. You enjoy it while it's happening and you try to do good with it. You try to have fun with it, but don't let it go to your head because it can all go away. You know, and I think you know, you only do this your last book, and so I hope that I'm able to continue writing maybe not this level but a level where I don't have to get a full-time job again. But for me it's very humbling that people love the books the way they do. I've had the most incredible interactions at, like book signings with people. You know I've had people come to the table so nervous that they're on a verge of tears and I've had people so excited they couldn't talk. I've had people who really connected with me through the books. So it's amazing, I'll tell you. So I realized that I was at a different level than I was a few years ago.

S.A. Cosby: 32:51

Last year I went to a comedy show here in the States and there's an American comedian. I'm a big fan of him, pat Noiswell, big comedian, and I've been on TV, been in movies, very funny guy. So we go to the show and I'm with some friends and they were like, oh, you should tag or say something on social media like that you're here at the show and tag him in it. I was like I don't want to do that, I don't want to sound like I'm clout chasing. I'm not that kind of person. They were like no, do it, do it, do it. So I did it.

S.A. Cosby: 33:20

And I tagged him and said, oh, I'm at the Pat Noiswell show waiting to laugh or something you know very innocuous. And he messaged me and he was like hey, are you at the show for real? I'm like yeah. He's like do you want to come backstage after? I'm like yeah. And he was like how many people are you? And I was like oh, it's just me and my friend. And like he's like I'll put you on the list. So after the show, go to meet him. And I entered the dressing room and I had my hand out, the cheek, his hand. He was so silly. He was like no, bring it in, got a hug, I'm a big fan of yours. And I'm like oh my God, wow. And that was the moment I realized, okay, things are different.

Nadine Matheson: 34:00

You're not in Kansas anymore.

S.A. Cosby: 34:03

Yeah, yeah, exactly. But I think for me, what keeps me grounded is my family and friends. You know my partner and my family, and I don't mean to keep me grounded in a way where they like pull me down, it's just with them, I'm just showing it's just, and with my friends. I went out the other night for a beer with some friends of mine and one of them was like oh wow, you haven't changed at all. Why would I? You know, I'm pretty much the same person. My circumstances have changed, but me, intrinsic me, is not different. But yeah, I don't take the success for granted, but I was only taking that seriously. I enjoy it, it's fun, it's nice to buy my dream car. That's cool, that's cool.

Nadine Matheson: 34:48

You have to have fun with it, though. When we have this saying in Grenada, they would say don't stretch, for your hand can't reach, and it's kind of. You can take it in two ways. The first way could be you know, stop being greedy Like, stop trying to take things that don't belong to you. But on the other hand, it could be you know, stay grounded, be humble, be sure of who you are, and I think in this, especially when you got, I would say when you got so many people blowing smoke up your ass, like everywhere you go. In fact, they're doing it in person, they're doing it on social media, they're doing it on print. It's important to, as you say, remain grounded, but not in the sense of people keeping you down, but being sure of who you are and being true to yourself.

S.A. Cosby: 35:30

Exactly, and I think you know. For me it's just, I can't lie, I'm gonna tell you the truth. Like I said, coming from a really poor background growing up, you know I don't know what they call them in England, but here they call them mobile homes like caravans.

Nadine Matheson: 35:44

Yeah, caravans I grew up in a trailer.

S.A. Cosby: 35:46

Yeah, I grew up in a trailer and I learned that from a Guy Ritchie movie, but anyway, no, actually he learned it from Snatch.

S.A. Cosby: 35:56

Yeah, I did. But growing up in one of those as a kid, you know, I was very poor. We didn't have money for like new shoes. I never had like a pair of like brand new shoes when I was growing up and all of that makes you know this. I'm very grateful for the success. But also it helps me sort of have a tough skin. Like a one star review is not gonna bother me because you know I grew up without running water, so that one star review it rolls right off my back. I dealt with really hard time that's not a hard time, you know and so it makes me sort of, gives me sort of a shield. It's sort of my strength when it comes to like bad reviews and stuff like that you know.

S.A. Cosby: 36:39

Or like you lose out on a award. Like I won a lot of awards, I've lost a bunch too. It doesn't make me sad. I literally and unironically, am just happy to be nominated. It's amazing to me that like my books have been nominated for the silver dagger from CWA or you know, I've won the, the buried on the cavities and all that stuff.

S.A. Cosby: 37:01

I wanted, I wanted, I wanted a ward in England. A couple years ago I was in England for the capital crimes. Capital crime, yeah, yeah. And I wanted like the inaugural thriller award, but at the same time, you know, I probably never gonna win that silver dagger because I but you never know, you never nice. Look, congratulations to the folks that wanted. The folks that wanted are amazing Chris Whitaker, adrian McKinney, folks like that, just to be in their Orbit, to be in the same sentence with them, is amazing to me.

S.A. Cosby: 37:28

But I think you know, at the end of the day, all I really want to do is tell stories and write books. You know, I've been wanting to tell stories since I was seven years old. My mother I'll tell you this funny story. So if she's to tell the story that when I was little she would tell me fairy tales, bedtime story and I would complain about the lack of logic in the stories. Like I remember telling me about the three little pigs, and it's a story about these three pigs and they built a house out of straw and the wolf comes and blows that one down. They build a house out of sticks and the wolf comes and blows that down. And then, finally, they build a house out of bricks and the wolf can't blow it down. And I remember telling my mom like why did they just build the first house out of bricks? Why did they? I'm gonna go write my own, yeah, yeah. And she's like go write your own story, then you can finish it any way you want. And, and that inspired me, I wrote a story and I let her read it and remember her reading it. And she kept looking at me and looking at the story, look at me. And finally she was like you came over this all on your own. I said yes, yes, ma'am, and she was very proud of me for coming.

S.A. Cosby: 38:31

It was a terrible story but I had made it up all by myself. It was awful. But he's face-staring nose that landed a rocket ship in the backyard, but uh, but the look, the look of her face when she realized I had written it, that I hadn't copied it from something or anything like that. I Am still looking for that look in people's faces when I see him. Yeah, read my books. I want to have that same look. My mom and I see it and it just it warms my heart. You know, it really does.

Nadine Matheson: 39:03

I was thinking about. You know, you're reading the story when you're a kid and you're saying this doesn't make any sense. I was that kid. I was a kid of this make this to make no sense, I don't know. But then I was also the child who would also be like what? I'm gonna do exactly what they did in the book and see if it works. So I remember I Remember doing it with the fairy tales. I remember reading Cinderella of Virgil Cinderella and she brushed her hair a hundred times. I got my brush and I tried to brush my hair but obviously I got Ken Rose in and after I was like this doesn't work for black girls. I remember thinking I read the princess in the pea, so I went and got the peas for the under the mattress. I'm sure my mom was Discovering peas hunters mattress, but I had to try. So I was that. I was that child. I'm gonna try and see if this works.

S.A. Cosby: 39:59

But I think that's so interesting that Both of us sort of even at a young age, had that openness to imagination, that that idea that oh, I'm gonna try it or I'm gonna, I'm gonna write a better story than what I was told, or I'm gonna Imagine whether or not this really could work. You know, I think that's telling that. You know, I think all writers have a version of that story. Because I think you have this openness, this sort of agreeableness to fantasy, to other worlds, to the imagination, and I think that's important. I think kids I don't know, I think kids lose that.

S.A. Cosby: 40:33

You know I'm not trying to sound like grumpy old man, but I think I think, especially in our current sort of society, I think kids lose a little bit of that. I think there's not as much Imagination or it's not as as nurtured as it was that back a while back, you know, and you know it comes through in different ways. I think video games help kids do that. You know, I think you know for me I was, you know, I know you are as well big comic book fan. I think comics and and Marvel and DC movies help kids have that sort of imagination. But it's definitely, I think it's a requirement for being a writer you have to have a big imagination. You have to think big, because your stories are a reflection of how you think, you know and the imagination that you are gifted with.

Nadine Matheson: 41:19

That's the question I was gonna ask you when you published your first book. So this is like my darkest prayer when that was published, what was you looking for? But what was your? What do you think was gonna happen? You know, I've got this book. Now I've written a book, is that that?

S.A. Cosby: 41:34

I Just wanted, like people other than my mom and my brother, to read it. I was like, if I get like a couple people outside and they're not related to me any way to read it, I'll be ecstatic. And you know, when I first published it, I published it with a small publisher in the states really good people, but, you know, very limited in what they could do in their scope. But I didn't care about that. I felt like I felt accomplished. I thought I have a real book. I've published a book that was, you know, read and edited by other people and they liked it enough to put their name on it and publish it. And for me, that was it. That was the goal. I didn't have any really idea outside of that. I just wanted to see my name on the cover of a book, you know, and, and I achieved that. And then, once I did that, then I felt like, okay, here's the next goal. I want to maybe get with a bigger publisher.

S.A. Cosby: 42:26

I want more people to see the book and and and then now it's funny, what drives me now is I want to be better than my last book. You know, I want every book to be better, different, intra. I think that's why I have shied away from from a series. Not there's anything wrong with a series, but for me personally, I want to keep doing different things, and this Sometimes a series can lock you in. Sometimes a series is great, it's very comfortable.

S.A. Cosby: 42:53

I love series novel, detective novel and I think it's something very just, very safe and warm about. Oh, here's another healing novel. Here's another Matthew Scutter, here's another. You know, ken's engineer old book and you know what to expect going in. But you're also surprised and the way the characters react to this new situation. So, but for me, I'm always trying to get better. I want each book To surpass the last one, you know, and the one I'm working on nail. I'm trying to do something different, trying to tell a different type of story. But you know, I think I think my expectations Were just really low. I just wanted somebody to read it, I wanted people to see it, and the fact that people did that was like wow, I'm overwhelmed. And so I think I still have a little bit of that in me. I still just want people to like the books, you know. I just want people to have a good time, you know, feel like they've got their money's worth, you know.

Nadine Matheson: 43:53

Well, no, we definitely get our money's worth. You know he's talking about writing series and I think me, because obviously I write series, but I do have this thing. I think it. Just it just goes back to how I am. Naturally I never feel comfortable Like. I always feel like I'm on sand and I'm like, okay, I need to do something else, I need to have, like, another project on the go, but it's exactly you said, then you're comfortable in writing a series and it's there's comforting going back to a familiar Well, but then you know we was talking earlier, before I started recording, about working on different projects. So, yeah, I'm writing another Henley book, but I also planning other things because I'm like I know my, my writer brain can stretch To other, to other things and explore new worlds, and I need to do that not only for myself but maybe for, you know, for the world.

S.A. Cosby: 44:45

I applaud you for taking on this duty. No, I Think that's true. I think, you know, even the most successful Serious writers step, branch out and do different things and and try to, you know, do interesting projects and stuff like that. I mean, you know, I think for me, like I talk about not writing a series and my most recent book a lot of people have asked me is that Main character coming back and all the centers bleed Titus, titus Kram. And you know it's funny because I initially had no plans ever bringing back. You know, it was like a close loop. Here's the story, here's what happened. You know, good day, yeah, but I think, I think he may have to come back because the reaction To him has been so just overwhelming.

S.A. Cosby: 45:36

People Genuinely love Titus, I think it's. They can love Titus in the way they can't love bug, because at the end of the day, bug is not a good person, he's a good character, he's an interesting protagonist, but bug is a functioning sociopath and I think it's harder to love you. You know I'll tell you a funny story. So a couple years ago for Mother's Day, I posted a scene from a movie here in the States. It was a Western movie called free to the humor with Russell Crowe and Christian Bale ironically a Western with two people in America. I thought it was. That's funny.

S.A. Cosby: 46:12

And there's a scene in it where Russell Crowe's character is an outlaw and he's been captured and this deputy one of the deputies they captured him for the whole movie. It's just needle in him and picking at him and saying the most horrible, gross things about his mother. And finally, russell Crowe's care can't take it anymore. He jumps up the horse, grabs the deputy, drags with the edge of a cliff and before he throws him over he says Byron, I always liked you, but you never knew when the shut the hell up. And then he whispers in his ear Even bad men love that mama's need. Throw them off the cliff. And I made a tweet about it. I said, yeah, I think bug would agree with that sentiment. So many people came into that tweet commenting like bug is not a bad man. Why would you say that it's not a terrible Ma'am? Have you? Have you read the book? He kills like nine people, right?

S.A. Cosby: 47:01

No it's not a great guy but it's, it's, the, it's, the.

Nadine Matheson: 47:05

It's the same thing, as I say with client, my clients, previous client and their mothers you can't see that your child is bad. No, no, no, no. My child is an angel. He would never do such a thing. No, no, he has. He's not a good boy, yeah.

S.A. Cosby: 47:22

I don't know, and I think with Tatis it's interesting that I think people can love Titus because he is a good man and at the end of the day he's human. He makes mistakes, he has flaws, but he's sort of that character, that sort of traditional Western, you know, detective character. He stands up for the righteous, you know, and I think it's easier to like wrap your arms around that, and so he may have to make a return appearance. We'll see. I haven't made up my mind yet, but I will say this I am very moved by the way people have received him, that people want to see him again. It means the world to me that writers have, I mean readers have connected with him like that, and so, yeah, he may have to come back. We'll see.

Nadine Matheson: 48:08

It is an interesting thing, though, because I had a similar well, I'm having a similar experience with Peter Olivier, who's the jigsaw killer in the first book, and he was a character who, when I I honestly always say I just used him as a plot device. He was never meant to be a main character, he was just there to get the actual story moving. I planned to have him coming for one chapter and then leap you never saw him again, but then he grew into this. He grew into this main character and he's a psychopath, he fully functioning psychopath, and the response that readers have to him I promise you there's I can probably bring up, for no more than that. I can bring up at least 20 messages asking me is he back, is he really dead? Is he coming back? I'm like this man is not a good man.

S.A. Cosby: 48:55

But that's the one, not at all.

Nadine Matheson: 48:57

He's just not at all, but he's the one they want back and I'm like, well, maybe I'll bring him back for prequel. That's what I'm probably, you know, milling around in my head, but it's funny, who readers resonate with in a strange way.

S.A. Cosby: 49:11

Yeah, yeah, like with Bug. Like I mean, look at wrong. Bug is trying to do the right thing, but he's not a great person. He's, like I said, a functioning social path. You know he's a benevolent social path. But I think, also with Bug at the end of that book, I did try to make him realize that. You know, he has this conversation with his wife at the end of the book where he's like yeah, I'm not good, I'm not good for you, not good for the kids, I shouldn't be around them, you know. And she challenges him to change. And so, you know, it'll be interesting to see, maybe do a sequel and see whether he did change. I don't know. See, people ask me all the time. I really don't know. I won't know until I write that book. You know, I have my suspicions, but it'll be interesting to see where he's at 10 years from the events of the book, you know.

S.A. Cosby: 50:05

But I think what Titus? I think the thing that people have connected with Titus is he is fallible, he's not perfect, you know he's not. You know he's not a superman, to paraphrase. And so you know, like, for instance, in all the centers this isn't a spoiler there's a moment where, so in the book. Titus has a current girlfriend, a local woman, but he has an ex from when he spent time in Indiana as an FBI agent. And as the book progresses we learn that his ex is a true crime podcaster now and so these horrible crimes that come to light in his town that he's the sheriff of, the chief of police of, and so she comes to town obscencially to interview him about the crime. But you know, we all know she wants to see him, he kind of wants to see her, and there's a moment where they do the interview and she's like, oh, I'm gonna edit it and I can send you the link or you can come by my hotel and I can let you listen to it.

Nadine Matheson: 51:06

Yeah, and you know.

S.A. Cosby: 51:09

Titus lies in the soap. Yeah, right, yeah, I mean, he could have just gotten the link, he didn't have to go over there. Something happened so he didn't go over there. But you know, I think we all know what was going on in their minds when they had that conversation, and so I did that to show that he's not perfect. You know, he's a human being. But the thing I really love about Titus is that he acknowledges that. He understands that in a way that I think my other characters don't, and he tried to adjust. He tried to be better. So, you know, I think we may see him again. I'd like to catch up with him in a few years. Give him some time to heal, because he gets pretty banged up in that book.

Nadine Matheson: 51:50

Listen, you put I know I put my characters through a lot, you put him through a lot when I like I remember before, you know, when you was writing all the sinners bleeding, very in the early early days, I think, we were messaging each other and I said, what are you working on? You went, oh, a serial killer. And I was like, really, this is different really. And then I read it and I was like, yeah, I remember I read it in Grenada, took it with me and I'm like I'm reading this in Grenada. I read it and I thought, yeah, Sean did the job, he did the job, Ah, Well, I read the Jigsaw man.

S.A. Cosby: 52:25

I got y'all, you've got somebody to send me an early copy of it and the thing I loved about it and it's sort of funny because I think Hindley has some things in common with Titus. She's not perfect, you know.

S.A. Cosby: 52:37

Frank I think she's kind of a mess, but she's really good. She's a mess, yeah, but she's really good at putting pieces together, no pun intended, she's really good at. I think and this just goes to a writing, a technical thing I think a good detective protagonist is somebody who can see the big picture and the way things connect, but also can see in the macro and the micro. They can see in the microcosm, but they can also see the big picture and they, you know it's, I think, a good detective. In a detective story it's like somebody, when you look at one of those moving pictures, that you have to stare at it and look at it from a different perspective. A good detective can look at it from multiple perspectives. They can turn that story or that mystery around and look at it from a way that a normal, regular person doesn't, and I think Hindley did that incredibly well in the Jigsaw man and in the Quad room. I'm sorry, that's wrong, I'll give you the?

Nadine Matheson: 53:38

yeah, it's fine the Binded room.

S.A. Cosby: 53:40

Binded room and I think Titus did that in All the Sinners Bleed. You know I love you know. I wanna ask you a question. There's a moment in both our books where our protagonist finally puts it all together. Right, they finally everything clicks and I love writing that scene. I love writing that scene when Titus finally puts it together in his head what this? I don't wanna give anything away, but there's a piece of evidence that nobody knows what it is and then he finally it clicks into what it is and it's how he solves the mystery. For me as a reader and as a writer, I love that moment in a book and I was wondering did you sort of come to that and enjoy that moment as well?

Nadine Matheson: 54:24

I did, cause I think, even though I planned my books out, you know there's certain things I would say they just happen organically. You don't know what's gonna happen. So I feel for me, when Hindley figured it out I also figured it out and how it all worked I was like, oh yeah, yeah, Now I've got it, now I've got it, and now and then you just hope that when the readers get to that moment they have that. Oh my God, I always. Did you ever watch Lufa With Bidra Selba?

S.A. Cosby: 54:52

Yes, yes, yes.

Nadine Matheson: 54:53

Right, there was this one I can't remember what season it was, but there was this one scene where the killer was hiding under the bed and then he slowly comes and the person doesn't know he's in the house and he slowly just emerges. And I just remember sitting at home going, oh my God, I feel like my heart is gonna stop, oh my God, and I always want my, I want my reader to have that reaction, to have that emerge. It's like, oh my God, and that's what I want when the pieces come together.

S.A. Cosby: 55:24

Yeah, definitely I love that moment and, like I said, I grew up reading. You know it's funny, I write pretty hard boiled stuff, I write pretty tough stuff, but I grew up reading like Agatha Christie and Dorothea L Sayers and GK Chester Sen and Ellery Queen and folks like that sort of drawing room murder mysteries. But I think that moment where the detective explains everything, I love it. It's like I love locker room mysteries, I love locker room mystery stories and so I love John Dickinson Carr and there's a moment where you know his character, gideon Fell, just tell, this is what happened. I finally figured it out. And it's like a magician showing you a magic trick. I love that. I love that moment and I think you can get it, not just in locker room mysteries and any kind of mystery.

S.A. Cosby: 56:09

But you know, I remember watching oh gosh, midsummer Murders. They played over in the States on a local PBS station and there's a moment in every episode where Bonnerby puts it together, he figures it out, and you can just see the actor showing it on his face. The wheels are turning and it clicks. And I love that about writing mystery fiction, apart from what I use to write, which is in the States called crime fiction, which is usually a heist or like with Raised by Tears. It's a novel of a ninja, but there's something about a detective, you know, like I said, putting the pieces together, seeing the gears lock into place. That is so gratifying as a reader and a writer, and I think that's one of the reasons I'll probably, will maybe, return to Titus.

S.A. Cosby: 56:57

I'd also like to go back and I wrote a novel, my first novel, my Darkest Prayer, as a character named Nathan Waymaker, and he's a detective. I don't know if he's as smart as Titus, but he's definitely someone who can put things together and I love the moment in that book too, where he figured out who the killers were. Again, that's the fun part of writing a mystery versus writing a crime. What am I wrong? I love writing ground. I love, like, the high scenes and blacktop wasteland Cause. Again, you have to put those together. They have to work, everything has to work in sort of concerts.

Nadine Matheson: 57:32

It's an engine.

S.A. Cosby: 57:34

Yeah, exactly, exactly so I think I guess, if I had to be honest, that's what I love about writing off-ground fiction is making the pieces fit. That's the fun part for me and the characters and putting them through hell. But yeah, when you actually see the pieces falling into place, that's really a part that I enjoy. And I plot it out, you know, and I try to make sure it makes sense. I'm very afraid of plot holes, so my biggest fear is a reader. A reader in one of my books is like wait a minute, how do those people know that? And so I'm the worst person in the world to watch a mystery movie with. I really am, because I'm very critical and I also figured out really quick.

Nadine Matheson: 58:18

It's not even mystery movies. I was no. I think I saw a meme or it wasn't a meme, it was a quote from which Star Wars was a bit. It was either the Last Jedi or the Rise of Skywalker and it was something that Kylo Ren said in regards to his grandfather, darth Vader, and he basically said you know, I'm finishing what my grandfather wanted, and I was like that makes no sense. It makes no sense Because it does not matter how they wanted it.

Nadine Matheson: 58:43

So that's how my brain works. You pick up the little thing, things that people might miss. So, again, it's like you miss your finding the plot hole. And that's how I am with my books. I'm like there could not be any plot hole. I don't need anyone emailing me from whatever country in the world telling me I made a mistake and this has not been dealt with. I'm like that is not happening on my watch. Iy Don't. Before I go on to our last, four, final question, this is another one I've added on as a question to my guess what piece of advice do you wish you'd been told earlier in your career? And I don't mean at the early stage of your career, I mean at this point now, where everything's went a little bit crazy. So just you know I'm just saying it went a little bit crazy.

S.A. Cosby: 59:31

Yeah, I think, I think I wish I had somebody had told me to. Well, I say this I don't want to sound facetious or arrogant, but I wish somebody had told me to take more care with my own personal time, you know, and what I mean is, like I was on the road last year for about 200 days. I traveled I'm counting travel time being on the plane, going to hotel, doing a signing, doing an event and I think I wish I had somebody had told me, you know, be more judicious with your time, you know, because not only do you have to write, you still got to write, you know. No, get me wrong, it is so wonderful being invited to this and that and the other thing, and wonderful festivals and events, but at the same time, you've got to have personal time, you've got to have time to decompress, you know. And again, not just about writing the next book, but just living. You know, I think that's the thing that you have to do.

S.A. Cosby: 1:00:29

I think you know I don't, I didn't get into this to just travel, and I got into this to enjoy my life and be able to do something I really love and then have that be like able for my to sponsor the rest of my life, and so I think you know, like this year, I'm saying no to a lot of things. I'm grateful to be asked, but I think you have to preserve your own personal time, and I think that's something I wish I had thought of, or somebody told me way back when you know. But also I think it's hard because, as writers, you know we've got to promote our books. You know even more so now, I think, because you're fighting for people's attention from the internet, from, like I said, other forms of media and entertainment. So you do have to be out there, but you have to find a good balance, you know, and I think you have to be gentle with your own heart, and I think that's something I've learned that I wish I knew earlier.

Nadine Matheson: 1:01:20

I feel like I learned that in a hard way but it annoyed me because I already knew this to be precious with my time. But when I was working full time as a lawyer and I remember there was a time I was doing, there was a year I was doing back to back to back trials, so there was literally no break. I was, I would finish a trial and that trial could have been going on for two weeks, three weeks, six weeks, and I would have finished a trial on a, say, a Tuesday and in the Wednesday I was doing, I was starting another trial and we're doing trials. You know your evenings and your weekends are gone and I think I had about six, seven months of that and I went. I then took a two week holiday.

Nadine Matheson: 1:01:56

I went to college just going to see my parents that's the easiest thing and it's cheaper to book a flight to Grenada, stay from my mum and dad. And I remember I got to my parents house like on the Wednesday in like early afternoon and my mum and dad have a restaurant and I got there and they were going down to the restaurant about five o'clock to support and I'd showered and I said, okay, yeah, I'll go down with you. I showered, I got dressed, I sat on the bed. I thought I was gonna lie down on the bed. It was half 11 at night and my dad said, yeah, we bought food for you, like downstairs in the kitchen, and I just passed out asleep. So I knew the importance of being precious with my time.

Nadine Matheson: 1:02:37

But then, with the book stuff came. It's a combination of you have to promote your book there's that and also it's exciting being part of this world. But then also like last, I think last year I was like no, I can't do it the way I did it before. You know, doing events, writing books and promoting the books and doing more and more events and traveling here, there and everywhere. I was exhausted.

Nadine Matheson: 1:03:00

So I thought I've said yeah, I'm not a thing, but I have to.

S.A. Cosby: 1:03:04

Yeah, I too, you know I've said yes or a few things early in the spring. But through this summer, my birthdays in the summer and I plan I want to do, I want to go somewhere. I want to go on vacation, like not go for a book, like just yeah, I'll tell you a funny story, then we go on to the last couple questions. So I did a book tour in June of last year. It was wonderful, it was great, meaning so many people, it was amazing, it really was. But at the same time, like you said, by the end of it I was sitting in a airport in Detroit, michigan, in the States. It's my last connection before I come back home to Virginia. I was sitting there waiting for the plane, you know, at the gate, and the song starts playing over the loud speaker and it's a song in the States was popular years ago called country roads, take me home, and about Virginia and about being a country boy, which I am unabatchedly a country boy and I started crying because I was so tired. I just want to go home. I just want to go home and you know, and I think you have to be aware of that you have to take care of yourself both physically go to the doctor, eat right, drink water but I was mentally. You know you can't spread yourself too thin. You know I'll say one more thing that will go on.

S.A. Cosby: 1:04:19

I did an event last year. We were at Harrogate with you know you were there. Yeah, all the other great UK writers who I've been very lucky to become friends with and a friend of ours, craig, sister son and and, like I said, chris Whitaker was there, and Aaron Fields and all these wonderful writers that I'm very lucky to be friends with. I think it was you, me and Aaron who killed that champagne bottle at a capital crime that a couple years ago. But I remember yeah, it's made possible. I was talking. I think it was Chris Whitaker and he was like he's man. I know you gotta be tired, you gotta be exhausted. You know you're everywhere. I'm like yeah.

S.A. Cosby: 1:05:00

I am tired, I'm going home, but at the same time, like you said, it's exciting being a part of this world. It's exciting getting to meet writers who you admire, writers whose work has inspired you, people who view you as a colleague. Now you know it's, it's, it's just fascinating. I have a picture on my phone of me, craig, sister, son and Steve Cavanaugh at Harrogate last year and we're in the pub and we all have a glass of whiskey and I'll cherish that memory. What what I can remember of that night? I'll share it.

Nadine Matheson: 1:05:34

Whenever people ask me about that, yeah, because it was that. Yeah, I said and it sounds like a strange thing to say. I said I felt like I was everywhere but nowhere, if that makes sense, because you're not able to, you're not in one place like enjoying it like a vacation, but you're still going everywhere exactly exactly and I can tell you why.

Nadine Matheson: 1:05:54

I know the song Country Road. Because one thing about West Indian people they love country songs. So yes, I know you, there's not one Caribbean island and they're like, no, they love the little country songs. Anyway, I'm gonna ask you your four questions, because anyone who knows Sean and I, sean and I will talk and talk. Okay. So, sean, are you an introvert or extrovert, or a hybrid of the two?

S.A. Cosby: 1:06:22

I'm an extrovert. I definitely am an extrovert. I've always been an extrovert. I'm the person in a crowd who laughs loud and tells a long story, and but I think I think that that helps me as a writer. I love encountering and meeting other people from different walks of life, and so I think my, my extrovertness helps me in my career.

Nadine Matheson: 1:06:46

Okay, so what challenge or experience in your life shaped you the most?

S.A. Cosby: 1:06:50

Oh, wow, that's a great question. I think it wasn't one event, but I think just seeing my mother struggle through her physical illness, but always looking out for us me and my brother have a brother and so seeing her just sort of persevere through, you know, a lot of physical ailments and again, we grew up in poverty but my mother was never ashamed of where we were from or who we were, and I think just seeing her strength shaped me. You know, it's like she can do that from a wheelchair and I can do anything. So I think just my mom was probably the person that shaped my life the most.

Nadine Matheson: 1:07:33

So if you could go back to when you were 25 years old and give yourself one piece of advice, what would it be?

S.A. Cosby: 1:07:42

Stop spending so much money. Stop spending so much money on women and liquor. Like save some of your money.

Nadine Matheson: 1:07:54

I always pick myself at 25, like, leave the credit card alone. Like, did you really need to use your credit card on that? No, you did not. Yes, exactly. So finally, sean, as a Cosby, where can listeners of the conversation podcast find you online?

S.A. Cosby: 1:08:15

I am still on Twitter. I'm gonna call it Twitter. It's called X now, but that's like if my mom is in Twitter, I'm gonna call it on Twitter. So I'm still on Twitter. I'm on Blue Sky, I'm on thread, instagram. I'm on all the social media platforms. I don't have a website yet and I know, I know I've got to make one. I have to. Sean you need a website. I know Mr Deep Christ I give.

Nadine Matheson: 1:08:37

Anybody needs a landing page, they'll go back to me.

S.A. Cosby: 1:08:42

I got to make one. But yeah, you can find me on there. People know me. I engage on those social media platforms.

Nadine Matheson: 1:08:49

Yes, she does.

S.A. Cosby: 1:08:49

I'm very I'm not shy about sharing my opinion on anything, so there are times when I probably should keep it to myself.

S.A. Cosby: 1:08:57

But you can find me on that and, just so your listeners know, I'm currently working on a new crime novel.

S.A. Cosby: 1:09:03

It's tentatively titled King of Ashes and it's about family three siblings older brother, middle sister, younger brother whose family runs a crematory and incinerator, and the youngest brother runs a file of some gangsters and the older brother tries to help him get out of this trouble, while they also have this horrible event that happened when they were kids. That is a cloud of their lives. When they were teenagers, their mother disappeared, never seen again, and everyone in their tail thinks their father killed her because he ran a crematory and she was having a affair. But so that sort of hung over their lives ever since. And so it's a story about crime and a story about criminality, but it's also a story about families and how the rules that were given within a family and how those shape our lives. So I'm excited about it. It's different, it's interesting, but as every book, it's starting out really cool, and now I'm in the middle and it's giving me fits, but hopefully I'll be able to.

Nadine Matheson: 1:10:06

That's always the way it is. I get excited at the planning stage. I love the planning stage. I'm like this is great, I got new ideas, I got this, I got that. And you sit down to write, literally as I'm writing down, I'm like what the hell? What's going on? What is going on.

S.A. Cosby: 1:10:19

What a word.

Nadine Matheson: 1:10:20

What, what? This is the question I wanted to pop into my head. Where do you write now? So you know, like you know before I was talking in the early days of you know, you always say you still time to write when you're working a full-time job. So your eyes to write in the back of call. I sit down while I'm waiting for my client to be brought up from the cells, sitting in the police station waiting room. I would write in strange places. Where do you write now? What's?

S.A. Cosby: 1:10:46

your space. So now I have an office here in my house, I have a recliner that I sit in and I actually don't have a desk. I have a lap desk that I use. I love listening to music, so I have my headphones on, I write, usually because I'm writing full-time now I don't have another job. So I write usually three hours in the morning, three hours in the afternoon and I stop. I try to stop myself at six or seven and actually have dinner, and then I don't write the rest of the day. I try to get as much done in those three hours before lunch, those three hours after lunch. I usually just write there. I mean, I used to write in a coffee shop. I used to work down the street from this coffee shop. It's on my lunch break. I would go in there and write. And I think that's why I listen to music, because I learned to write while there's all this stuff going on around me and I don't like writing in silence. It's hard for me. Me neither, I like listening to music.

Nadine Matheson: 1:11:37

I've always put that down to growing up in my house with brothers and having a big family Like my mother and my father, both sides, just a big family, and people was in and out of the house, Brothers just being brothers and screaming doing whatever. You know their friends coming over.

Nadine Matheson: 1:11:55

So I always say I'm used to working with noise, so when I write I can't write in silence. It would just disturb me. So I've always got this, always something going on in the background. Yeah, so me my head turns me in the talk radio. Yeah, I can't do it, but I can't work. I can't work in coffee shops. I can't write in a coffee shop. Oh wow, I tried it. That's interesting. Yeah, it's like there's too much going on around me. It's odd.

S.A. Cosby: 1:12:22

I zone out. So it's like the music is sort of background noise, but when I'm really writing like I'm in an intense scene, it's like I'm there, like I'm watching it and I'm just transcribing what's happening.

Nadine Matheson: 1:12:34

And it's funny because I'm really you act out.

S.A. Cosby: 1:12:37

I do sometimes. Yeah, yeah, I did the black top. I had a little toy card and I plotted out the chase scenes with the toy card Just to get the perspectives and stuff right. I tell you what I do a lot. I read out loud. I'll read the dialogue and to make sure it makes sense, and I think it freaks my cat out because I don't think he understands what I'm doing and I do the voices and everything, I do the accents and stuff, and so I do that to make sure the dialogue doesn't sound like writing.

S.A. Cosby: 1:13:10

Too many times you'll read a book where the dialogue is just a soliloquy, it's not really a conversation between two characters. So I try to make sure that it doesn't sound like it's written. It sounds like it's actually happening. Yeah, that's my process, and I'm superstitious though, because I've written all four of my books in the same recliner and so I'm scared not to write on that book in that recliner, and so I used to have a lucky hat that I wore, but my hat finally fell apart. The bill came off. It'll let it go.

Nadine Matheson: 1:13:45

But I think we all have our little things Like I have to Like if I'm planning out my book. So the very first plan I have to do it in pencil. I don't know what it is. I can't do it in pen. I have to plan it and I do it on a yellow legal pad. So I have to do it out in pencil first and then I type it up. So that's like my, that is my process. If I try it any other way, I'll be like this doesn't feel right, yeah.

S.A. Cosby: 1:14:11

My one superstition that I know people think is weird I can't write until I come up with a title. I have to make the title first. No, that's not me. I never do like a piece. Yeah, yeah, I got to come up with the title and then the title sort of gives me the gravitas to write the book. So for all the centers Glee, the original title was a line from the Bible. It's a line in Revelations, talk about the moon with black and sat-claw. So the original title was black and sat-claw and it just didn't fit and I was like, oh, this isn't right, it just, you know, it's like I can't describe it, it's almost like a apostolic. It's like, oh, it doesn't feel right. And I kept messing with it and I just came up. I came up with all the centers Glee through a conversation with a friend of mine, and then when I said it it was like, oh, that's it, that's the title. And it's like, nick, let's change, all right, let's go. So.

Nadine Matheson: 1:15:04

No, I say we'll go in a sec, but no, I do the same thing. I can't write without a title, I have to call it something. So for the third book that's coming out, the Kill List, it wasn't called the Kill List, it was called Sleeping Dogs. That's what I called it Because there's something it's mentioned. Sleeping Dogs is mentioned in the book later on, but I called it Sleep with Dog. And the one I'm writing now and I know the title's going to change, but I couldn't write a first sentence without calling it something. So this one's called no Case to Answer. But I know it will change, but I need that If I don't have it. I'm just looking at what is this? What am I writing? A shopping list Could be anything.

S.A. Cosby: 1:15:41

It's like a place to put your feet, it's like a place to stand. Once you read that title, yeah, and once I get the title, then I'm off to the right place.

Nadine Matheson: 1:15:48

Exactly so you know you talk about your hat. I have this cardigan. It's terrible. It's got holes in it and everything. But I'm like, no, no, this is my writing cardigan. When I have that off, I'm like, right, I'm in the zone.

Nadine Matheson: 1:16:00

Don't bother me, leave me alone. I've got the cardigan with the holes in it and the extra long sleeves. I'm good to go. Well, sean, I'm going to say goodbye because I need to let you go and have your breakfast Because obviously, you're in the States and I'm over here, so you need to. Sean, as I cosmic, can I say thank you so much for being part of the conversation.

S.A. Cosby: 1:16:21

Oh gosh, thank you for having me. It's so great to talk to you, so great seeing you. I hope I see you again soon. I probably will be back in the UK sooner than later. I'm very lucky. People in the UK have really embraced my books. I am so grateful I have. It's amazing to me, I love it and my UK fans are so passionate about the books and it really means a lot as a poor kid from the American South who still wears big old boots, to be embraced by the UK audience. But I love you to death. It's so good seeing you. I can't wait to talk to you again, me too, we need to do a holiday.

S.A. Cosby: 1:16:59

Thank you so much.

Nadine Matheson: 1:16:59

We might need to do a vacation. That's what we need to do.

S.A. Cosby: 1:17:02

Exactly, all right. Talk to you later. Bye-bye.

Nadine Matheson: 1:17:06

Thank you for joining me for this week's episode of the Conversation with Nadine Matheson podcast. I really hope that you enjoyed it. I'll be back next week with a new guest, so make sure that you subscribe and you'll never miss the next episode. And also don't forget to like, share and leave a review. It really means a lot and it also helps the podcast. And you can also support the podcast on Patreon, where every new member will receive exclusive merchandise. Just head down to the show notes and click on the link, and if you'd like to be a guest on a future episode of the Conversation, all you have to do is email theconversationatnadeemathesoncom. Thank you, and I'll see you next week.